Comments on: From Hull and Hell, Good Lord Deliver Phil Brown http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/ For and by fans of Sunderland AFC Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:29:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://golbox.com?v=3.2.1 By: Hull City: an optimist’s survival plan | Salut! Sunderland http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-4423 Hull City: an optimist’s survival plan | Salut! Sunderland Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:03:10 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-4423 [...] links with Alan began when we ran a piece (after Phil Brown’s sacking) that was essentially affectionate towards the club but which he found condescending, not least since we had little to shout about [...] [...] links with Alan began when we ran a piece (after Phil Brown’s sacking) that was essentially affectionate towards the club but which he found condescending, not least since we had little to shout about [...]

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]]> By: Jeremy Robson http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3846 Jeremy Robson Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:43:46 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3846 He's a Mackem because he supports Sunderland Mark, not because he's from Shields. He’s a Mackem because he supports Sunderland Mark, not because he’s from Shields.

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]]> By: Mark http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3826 Mark Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:03:02 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3826 You're all wrong....Phil Brown is a Sanddancer, not a Mackem. You’re all wrong….Phil Brown is a Sanddancer, not a Mackem.

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]]> By: Jeremy Robson http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3812 Jeremy Robson Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:00:25 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3812 Lovely post Alan, and a healthy debate. I'm sure that we'd enjoy a pint with you in the pub too. Call back soon. Lovely post Alan, and a healthy debate. I’m sure that we’d enjoy a pint with you in the pub too. Call back soon.

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]]> By: Alan http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3809 Alan Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:03:38 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3809 To be fair Jeremy, you say you might be opinionated, join the club, we are football supporters! Having debated the Pros and Cons, I found your article was provocative in a good way and achieved the response it deserved, healthy debate. having just found this site I shall keep in toch as the articles, comments and journalistic commentary seem to be top notch! Keep well and enjoy the run in! To be fair Jeremy, you say you might be opinionated, join the club, we are football supporters! Having debated the Pros and Cons, I found your article was provocative in a good way and achieved the response it deserved, healthy debate. having just found this site I shall keep in toch as the articles, comments and journalistic commentary seem to be top notch! Keep well and enjoy the run in!

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]]> By: Alan http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3806 Alan Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:30:47 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3806 Guys – this could get tiresome for others and that would be a pity! Re-read my initial response and you will only find two references to Sunderland; the first in which I declare a fondness for the club and people, the second which is no more than a reference point to the similarity of our early season starts, last year and this. It was the style of the comment and some of the assumptions that irritated me. It was in Jeremy’s next response that he decided to give me the beginnings of a history lesson; unfortunately it was inaccurate and unnecessary; but no bother! You, Salutsunderland, then took up the reins and continued the history lesson and comparisons – you both led the chase on this! But let us stop it here. I measure a club on what they can bring to the field today – form is usually measured over 6 games and that about sums it up for me. Football is a game of changing fortunes, poor and good luck, poor and good officials, star players who get injured and star players who bomb! It is also about managers who constantly seek to play their best eleven, because they know their best eleven and they have studied the frailties of today’s opposition. Any clubs credibility these days is as good as their last year’s results and ours have been appalling; none of us hide from that, hence the Brown out faction. I believe any club who gets promoted to any league has a right to be given respect and allowed to get on with it – our problem was Brown’s mouth; it lost connection to his brain at times and brought ridicule on the good name of our club! Newcastle supporters still tell me that ‘little’ Hull were lucky last season – and the inference is that they were therefore unlucky. Newcastle, just like us and other clubs had internal problems and 38 x 90 minutes to get it right on the pitch, but no noticeable lack of funds; we took 4 points from 6 and showed them the door in the FA Cup, falling to Arsenal on a poor decision. Jeez are we, little Hull, lucky! Jeremy, I enjoy a pint with many lads in the pub, but I would not want them to manage my team. Don’t say ‘all’ because I and quite a few others had real doubts about Browns abilities, but recognised he had earned the right at a shot managing in the top flight – fair dos! My patience finally ran out with him, in footballing terms, around February 2009. Salutsunderland, yes, I would be prepared to do the piece prior to our next game. SAFCDaft – agree with you in most points, but believe me I have fully accepted the possibility of relegation (there I’ve said it!), but I will not accept the probability just yet! Glass always half full mate! Keep the faith guys, you will be fine. Get someone to use Campbell as Windass did and you will reap more return – slow the lad a tad and get more end product. Thanks for the well reasoned and polite banter – a credit to your club and yourselves! That great man Raich Carter will always provide a bond between our clubs. Onwards and upwards!

Guys – this could get tiresome for others and that would be a pity! Re-read my initial response and you will only find two references to Sunderland; the first in which I declare a fondness for the club and people, the second which is no more than a reference point to the similarity of our early season starts, last year and this. It was the style of the comment and some of the assumptions that irritated me.

It was in Jeremy’s next response that he decided to give me the beginnings of a history lesson; unfortunately it was inaccurate and unnecessary; but no bother! You, Salutsunderland, then took up the reins and continued the history lesson and comparisons – you both led the chase on this! But let us stop it here. I measure a club on what they can bring to the field today – form is usually measured over 6 games and that about sums it up for me. Football is a game of changing fortunes, poor and good luck, poor and good officials, star players who get injured and star players who bomb! It is also about managers who constantly seek to play their best eleven, because they know their best eleven and they have studied the frailties of today’s opposition.

Any clubs credibility these days is as good as their last year’s results and ours have been appalling; none of us hide from that, hence the Brown out faction. I believe any club who gets promoted to any league has a right to be given respect and allowed to get on with it – our problem was Brown’s mouth; it lost connection to his brain at times and brought ridicule on the good name of our club!

Newcastle supporters still tell me that ‘little’ Hull were lucky last season – and the inference is that they were therefore unlucky. Newcastle, just like us and other clubs had internal problems and 38 x 90 minutes to get it right on the pitch, but no noticeable lack of funds; we took 4 points from 6 and showed them the door in the FA Cup, falling to Arsenal on a poor decision. Jeez are we, little Hull, lucky!

Jeremy, I enjoy a pint with many lads in the pub, but I would not want them to manage my team. Don’t say ‘all’ because I and quite a few others had real doubts about Browns abilities, but recognised he had earned the right at a shot managing in the top flight – fair dos! My patience finally ran out with him, in footballing terms, around February 2009.

Salutsunderland, yes, I would be prepared to do the piece prior to our next game.

SAFCDaft – agree with you in most points, but believe me I have fully accepted the possibility of relegation (there I’ve said it!), but I will not accept the probability just yet! Glass always half full mate!

Keep the faith guys, you will be fine. Get someone to use Campbell as Windass did and you will reap more return – slow the lad a tad and get more end product. Thanks for the well reasoned and polite banter – a credit to your club and yourselves! That great man Raich Carter will always provide a bond between our clubs. Onwards and upwards!

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]]> By: safcdaft http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3805 safcdaft Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:03:13 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3805 I feel for Alan, it’s very hard to face the truth about the drop into the Championship, and as a Sunderland supporter I am all too aware of that feeling. It would not surprise me if we make the drop this year, but recent form suggests we may stay up. I think Jeremy has hit the nail on the head with his comparisons with other managers whom have had success one year and been fired the next. In the world of top flight football there is no place for failure, the consequences for the drop are so big, only the most committed chairman will stand by their manager's. The reality is the more money a club spends the more success you have, that being said Hull don't have huge amounts of cash to splash and therefore will be favorites to go down every year, unless they are purchased by a Sugar daddy such as Abramovich. The size of a club is not measured by the support anymore, or Sunderland would be in the top four every year, it is measured by the size of it's bank balance. Hull City could be a big club, history has nothing to do with it, and they just need lots of lovely cash. Only 14 years ago Man City were in the third tire, then along comes a sugar daddy and now they are vying for a top four place. I read Jeremy’s article as being accurate and true, and if Hull City wanted long term success they should have stuck with Phil Brown, at least until the end of the season. I really do hope the Tiger's can stay up, it is good for football in the North East.

I feel for Alan, it’s very hard to face the truth about the drop into the Championship, and as a Sunderland supporter I am all too aware of that feeling. It would not surprise me if we make the drop this year, but recent form suggests we may stay up. I think Jeremy has hit the nail on the head with his comparisons with other managers whom have had success one year and been fired the next. In the world of top flight football there is no place for failure, the consequences for the drop are so big, only the most committed chairman will stand by their manager’s. The reality is the more money a club spends the more success you have, that being said Hull don’t have huge amounts of cash to splash and therefore will be favorites to go down every year, unless they are purchased by a Sugar daddy such as Abramovich. The size of a club is not measured by the support anymore, or Sunderland would be in the top four every year, it is measured by the size of it’s bank balance. Hull City could be a big club, history has nothing to do with it, and they just need lots of lovely cash. Only 14 years ago Man City were in the third tire, then along comes a sugar daddy and now they are vying for a top four place. I read Jeremy’s article as being accurate and true, and if Hull City wanted long term success they should have stuck with Phil Brown, at least until the end of the season. I really do hope the Tiger’s can stay up, it is good for football in the North East.

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]]> By: Jeremy Robson http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3803 Jeremy Robson Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:42:48 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3803 Alan. My point is that Phil Brown was a lucky fellah getting your club promoted. He was no genius or master tactician (ask the Derby fans about that!), but he was the bloke in the right place at the right time. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Phil Brown or his managerial abilities; he got you up and he kept you up. He deserves a lot of credit for that. Like Colin I would despair if he ever took the reins at Sunderland, but his achievement at keeping a newly promoted club up should be given credit, irrespective of how it was achieved. Keeping any club up is a monumental challenge. I should know after 40+ years of watching us fight against relegation one year and then challenge proudly for promotion the following year. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve witnessed this. Maybe I was a little premature in commenting about Horton and Parkin. I’m not as negative about Iain Dowie as everyone else seems to be and I hope he can turn the ship round. This is not about Sunderland; it’s about Hull. Given Hull City’s history and track record, it’s a major footballing miracle that you survived a season. That is not opinion; it is simple fact. Look at the statistics since the conception of the Premier League. If you have come up then the chances are you will go straight back down the following season. If not, then it’s even more likely that you will go down the following year. This applies to clubs that have top flight history (which Hull City does not). Crystal Palace, Birmingham City, Sheffield Utd, Watford, Ipswich Town, WBA, etc etc etc. The list goes on. Given the fact that this is your first foray into the top flight then it’s going to be even more difficult, and often leads to complete and utter disaster. If you don’t believe me, then take a look at the recent and current league standings of Barnsley, Bradford City, Crystal Palace, Norwich City and Swindon Town as examples. Rapid and unprecedented success is usually a precursor to rapid and subsequent failure, simply because the clubs do not have the financial flexibility and reserves to deal with often unexpected success followed by the after shock of ending up back where you started. I’m sorry you feel the tone is condescending but I fully appreciate the difficulties that clubs have in attracting the calibre of player (even if they can afford wages and transfer fees), because there is limited attraction in playing for a newly promoted club for seasoned talented pros. That’s why you have the likes of McShane, Kilbane and J V of G. Just the same as we ended up with Chopra., Halford and Anderson when we last went up. That is just the way it is and no matter how much you might want to change it, you simply can’t. Maybe you think that being in the PL makes you a PL club in terms of stature, financial clout and equal with every other club in that league. Sorry to disillusion you, but it doesn’t. It takes a long time and some clubs never get there. I’m not in love with modern football like I used to be because it’s a huge business and no longer a sport. Those with the biggest and most stable financial footing will be those that prosper. It’s not even about having a large fan base any more. Anyone who buck that trend is alright in my book. You may have arrived in the PL thinking that it’s the promised land, but it can be a fool’s paradise because the cost of losing your place in it is something from which you may never recover. The poor fortunes of some of those clubs listed above are evidence of that. There’s a danger of moving too far away from the main point, which is that Phil Brown was never quite the man you all made him out to be in May 2008. He’s not the clown that so many of you Tigers make him out to be now either. His Beach Boys cover caused me no offence and I couldn’t care less about some of the other things he’s done either. He seems like a canny bloke that you could have a chat with over a pint. Hull as a city deserves more from its football club than has ever previously been achieved. I’ve enjoyed seeing your team play over the last couple of seasons enormously and I always want them to win (apart from when you are playing us). Alan. My point is that Phil Brown was a lucky fellah getting your club promoted. He was no genius or master tactician (ask the Derby fans about that!), but he was the bloke in the right place at the right time. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Phil Brown or his managerial abilities; he got you up and he kept you up. He deserves a lot of credit for that. Like Colin I would despair if he ever took the reins at Sunderland, but his achievement at keeping a newly promoted club up should be given credit, irrespective of how it was achieved. Keeping any club up is a monumental challenge. I should know after 40+ years of watching us fight against relegation one year and then challenge proudly for promotion the following year. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve witnessed this. Maybe I was a little premature in commenting about Horton and Parkin. I’m not as negative about Iain Dowie as everyone else seems to be and I hope he can turn the ship round.
This is not about Sunderland; it’s about Hull. Given Hull City’s history and track record, it’s a major footballing miracle that you survived a season. That is not opinion; it is simple fact. Look at the statistics since the conception of the Premier League. If you have come up then the chances are you will go straight back down the following season. If not, then it’s even more likely that you will go down the following year. This applies to clubs that have top flight history (which Hull City does not). Crystal Palace, Birmingham City, Sheffield Utd, Watford, Ipswich Town, WBA, etc etc etc. The list goes on. Given the fact that this is your first foray into the top flight then it’s going to be even more difficult, and often leads to complete and utter disaster. If you don’t believe me, then take a look at the recent and current league standings of Barnsley, Bradford City, Crystal Palace, Norwich City and Swindon Town as examples.
Rapid and unprecedented success is usually a precursor to rapid and subsequent failure, simply because the clubs do not have the financial flexibility and reserves to deal with often unexpected success followed by the after shock of ending up back where you started. I’m sorry you feel the tone is condescending but I fully appreciate the difficulties that clubs have in attracting the calibre of player (even if they can afford wages and transfer fees), because there is limited attraction in playing for a newly promoted club for seasoned talented pros. That’s why you have the likes of McShane, Kilbane and J V of G. Just the same as we ended up with Chopra., Halford and Anderson when we last went up. That is just the way it is and no matter how much you might want to change it, you simply can’t. Maybe you think that being in the PL makes you a PL club in terms of stature, financial clout and equal with every other club in that league. Sorry to disillusion you, but it doesn’t. It takes a long time and some clubs never get there. I’m not in love with modern football like I used to be because it’s a huge business and no longer a sport. Those with the biggest and most stable financial footing will be those that prosper. It’s not even about having a large fan base any more. Anyone who buck that trend is alright in my book. You may have arrived in the PL thinking that it’s the promised land, but it can be a fool’s paradise because the cost of losing your place in it is something from which you may never recover. The poor fortunes of some of those clubs listed above are evidence of that.

There’s a danger of moving too far away from the main point, which is that Phil Brown was never quite the man you all made him out to be in May 2008. He’s not the clown that so many of you Tigers make him out to be now either. His Beach Boys cover caused me no offence and I couldn’t care less about some of the other things he’s done either. He seems like a canny bloke that you could have a chat with over a pint.
Hull as a city deserves more from its football club than has ever previously been achieved. I’ve enjoyed seeing your team play over the last couple of seasons enormously and I always want them to win (apart from when you are playing us).

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]]> By: salutsunderland http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3802 salutsunderland Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:54:53 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3802 Alan: Great post again, but you keep missing the point that Jeremy was writing about Hull, not Sunderland. What you think about his views on your club is therefore more relevant that any comparison with SAFC. This is a partisan Sunderland site but aims more broadly at football fans whoever they support and occasionally runs material on completely non-SAFC issues (I rattled off a piece on the horrible injury to Aaron Ramsey within an hour of it happening and had visits from 1000 Arsenal fans). But no, I wouldn't have wanted Phil Brown at the SoL. And yes, you've talked yourself into doing the Who Are You feature ahead of the return game if you're up for it. You will then have plenty of space to put your views ... I'll send the questions nearer the time if you are. Alan: Great post again, but you keep missing the point that Jeremy was writing about Hull, not Sunderland. What you think about his views on your club is therefore more relevant that any comparison with SAFC. This is a partisan Sunderland site but aims more broadly at football fans whoever they support and occasionally runs material on completely non-SAFC issues (I rattled off a piece on the horrible injury to Aaron Ramsey within an hour of it happening and had visits from 1000 Arsenal fans).

But no, I wouldn’t have wanted Phil Brown at the SoL.

And yes, you’ve talked yourself into doing the Who Are You feature ahead of the return game if you’re up for it. You will then have plenty of space to put your views … I’ll send the questions nearer the time if you are.

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]]> By: Alan http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/2010/03/from-hull-and-hell-good-lord-deliver-phil-brown/comment-page-1/#comment-3800 Alan Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:07:13 +0000 http://salutsunderland.FootballUNITED.com/?p=7598#comment-3800 Okay guys let’s be specific. In the opening preamble (Salutsunderland?) it is stated that, “Phil Brown is a Mackem, he’s passionate and he led Hull City to heights few of their fans can realistically have expected to see.” If you added at the end ‘that season’ then you would have had a point, but you did not and you did not! Jeremy Robson states that “Chairmen are rarely happy with a single miracle and want a second (or in Hull’s case a third following promotion and then avoiding the drop).” Do you really attribute this to three miracles or a team that battles and simply out performs some that believe they have a golden right to take the points and league position? I have assumed two of your miracles at promotion and survival (the first was by position 3rd and subsequent victory at the play off final – just what more were we to do?) perhaps you could let me know what the first was – being in the CCC? I call that a condescending and smug view of your contemporaries. You go on to use the miracle analogy and say, “but no the miracle maker is deposed to tending his allotment while the likes of Brian Horton (previously not considered good enough to manage Hull any longer, together with Steve Parkin; (who was sacked at Rochdale not so long ago) are handed the reins.” Why criticise the decision to remove Brown; surely not on his record? Look at his games, win draw and lose ratio and his appalling PR gaffes. Or is the fact he is a Mackem all it takes to secure his future? Do you really believe our results prior to Boxing Day were as poor as those that have followed? If so you are clearly deluded as we surpassed your lauded (and rightly so) achievements this season for early season performance. We did it on a team that cost far less also. Your freefall has only very recently stopped, like I have said before, I hope that continues. Your concerns, regarding Horton and Parkin were a tad premature; although subsequent concerns about Dowie I share! As for your history, fine, remember 1987! I too can read Wiki and yes, we are having to fight through hard financial times, but that is nothing new to us or Sunderland – read your own financial history and you might find it more prudent to stick to football. Just for the record, I will ask you both again, would you have Phil Brown as the manager of Sunderland? I live among Mackems and have not yet found one who would. I look for to your answer. Okay guys let’s be specific.

In the opening preamble (Salutsunderland?) it is stated that, “Phil Brown is a Mackem, he’s passionate and he led Hull City to heights few of their fans can realistically have expected to see.” If you added at the end ‘that season’ then you would have had a point, but you did not and you did not!

Jeremy Robson states that “Chairmen are rarely happy with a single miracle and want a second (or in Hull’s case a third following promotion and then avoiding the drop).” Do you really attribute this to three miracles or a team that battles and simply out performs some that believe they have a golden right to take the points and league position? I have assumed two of your miracles at promotion and survival (the first was by position 3rd and subsequent victory at the play off final – just what more were we to do?) perhaps you could let me know what the first was – being in the CCC? I call that a condescending and smug view of your contemporaries. You go on to use the miracle analogy and say, “but no the miracle maker is deposed to tending his allotment while the likes of Brian Horton (previously not considered good enough to manage Hull any longer, together with Steve Parkin; (who was sacked at Rochdale not so long ago) are handed the reins.” Why criticise the decision to remove Brown; surely not on his record? Look at his games, win draw and lose ratio and his appalling PR gaffes. Or is the fact he is a Mackem all it takes to secure his future?

Do you really believe our results prior to Boxing Day were as poor as those that have followed? If so you are clearly deluded as we surpassed your lauded (and rightly so) achievements this season for early season performance. We did it on a team that cost far less also. Your freefall has only very recently stopped, like I have said before, I hope that continues.

Your concerns, regarding Horton and Parkin were a tad premature; although subsequent concerns about Dowie I share!

As for your history, fine, remember 1987! I too can read Wiki and yes, we are having to fight through hard financial times, but that is nothing new to us or Sunderland – read your own financial history and you might find it more prudent to stick to football.

Just for the record, I will ask you both again, would you have Phil Brown as the manager of Sunderland? I live among Mackems and have not yet found one who would. I look for to your answer.

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