Briefly joint leaders last weekend, we had our balloon well and truly burst by a much more determined Stoke (who did the same to us last season after that heartening victory over Newcastle). Pete Sixsmith tries very hard to sound positive but cannot hide the doubts…

The mantra we have chanted so far in this fledgling season is “That was different from last year – we’d have lost/drawn/scraped through/been hammered in the games with Bolton/Blackburn/Norwich/ Chelsea.”

We were beginning to convince ourselves that we were made of sterner stuff and that although we had some weaknesses, the strengths just about outweighed them. And then we went to Stoke …

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Forget Eduardo’s criminal dive, Wenger’s squalid refusal to deplore it and lowlife goings on at Upton Park. Feast instead on part two of the preview by Stoke fans of Saturday’s Sunderland old and new boys’ reunion. We already know what they made of last season and the transfer dealings. Now let’s see what Simon “Northy” Northwood , who runs the Rip Roaring Potters fan site, and Julian Boodell, who has been known to frequent the Oatcake message board, think the new season will bring …

Where will each club end up this season?

Julian:Sunderland top half safely but a good bet for top seven finish. Stoke lower mid table, but I would feel more comfortable with a couple of better players added to the first team.

Northy: I think stoke will finish 15th and reckon sunderland will finish 11th.

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Red and white stripes – but not ours …
What a difference a new season makes. Last time round, we had a devil of a job persuading any Stoke City fan to contribute a “Who are you?” piece before we played them. This week, we’re spoilt for choice. But since Simon Northwood - also known as Northy*, who runs the Rip Roaring Potters fan site and is pictured above – and Julian Boodell*, the one City fan who did agree to take part last season, answered the same questions, I though it would work to run them together but in two parts. The second will appear overnight …

Stoke City did ever so well last season, winning friends with the exuberance of their home performances in particular. Were you surprised?

Northy: You say we won friends but a lot of the comments I read from other supporters still seem to be very negative, angry even, over our perceived style of play. I think true footy fans developed a fondness for the Potters because of our in your face performances which spoke volumes of pride and passion. I wasn’t surprised that the atmosphere inside the Britannia and also away from it was widely praised because it was red hot 90% of the time. Even away at Blackburn in a shocking performance there was a constant wall of noise from the Stoke end.

Julian: In the main yes I was surprised we were everyone’s favourites to go down, Paddy Power famously paying out on Stoke’s relegation after our first match a 1-3 defeat at Bolton – what do they know. Stoke’s home form kept the side in the Premiership, and the fans were quite rightly lauded as their team’s twelfth man, a fact which hasn’t gone unnoticed by Hull City’s Phil Brown who has put a bid in for him! Phil Brown for the uninitiated is of a tango coloured disposition but more importantly he is linked with every single player that Stoke have been associated with. It got ridiculous when at one point he heard Tony Pulis was in for a penny and in for a pound and made counter bids only to be yet again snubbed, adding them to a list which included Michael Owen and Sunderland’s own recent signing Fraizer Campbell. Sky Sports measured the fans’ singing at all Premiership grounds and Stoke were the loudest, at times it has been quite breathtaking, the hairs on the back of your neck fair stand up! A Boro’ fan even claimed Stoke were using the PA system to boost the noise – a fact which is untrue but goes some way to understanding how loud we really are. Unlike the morgues that are Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge and Highbury.

How important were the noise generated at home and the long throws of Rory Delap?

The throws of Delap were massively important for a variety of reasons. Firstly they were reported throughout the world and gave the club a greater exposure. Secondly they produced some important goals and thirdly because the sight of Delap warming up for a rocket basically caused mass panic in opposition defences and that can only be good for Stoke. A lot of the time though nothing came of them apart from wasted attacking opportunities which was the worrying part of the phenomenon. The support as I have said above was vital, who wouldn’t give their all for the shirt in an atmosphere like that.

Julian: The fans support was memorable and definitely played it’s part in Stoke’s home record (we conceeded less goals than Arsenal) and only lost to Man Utd, Chelsea, Everton and West ham, we’ll need that sort of form this season too. Rory Delap was responsible for about a quarter of Stoke’s goals neting versus Spurs (H) and Chelsea (A) but his throws caused havoc up til November, then the better sides sussed how to defend them (wouldn’t like to give anything away here as how to defend them) as he’s already hurled the ball into the net via a Burnley player (who is currently our joint top scorer with defender Ryan Shawcross. The best throw in moment last year was Delap’s hurling of the ball directly into the far side of the net (sadly without the dimunitive Wigan keeper touching the ball) he did his damdest but it sailed over his head)

Despite that spirited support, Salut! Sunderland struggled – as Julian will recall – to find Stoke fans to preview the games, and the rebuffs were sometimes quite sharp. No other Premier or cup opposition club gave us the same problem. Were we just unlucky?

Northy: Unlucky to get me maybe! I’ve no idea, as far as i am aware there is no bad blood between the two clubs so maybe you just picked the wrong folk on a bad day.

Julian:
The fanzine’s forum does have a percentage of younger fans writing on it’s board, but we aren’t all cut from the same cloth – hence this scribe’s willingness to pen some prose.

Grizzled, unorthodox but strangely watchable. That’s how the Sunday Times summed up why, if Stoke City were a movie star it would be Gene Hackman. A compliment or an insult?

Classic question that. It’s a compliment to me although some stokies might see it as an insult. I can’t really argue with it. I love watching our grizzled and unorthadox style but it needs fine tuning this season for sure.

Julian: Having seen all but four of our games last season it’s fair. As someone who was brought up watching the skills of Hudson (in his prime twice capped for England whilst at Stoke – never whilst at Chelsea) Greenhoff, and Chamberlain more latterly, and 24 seasons of mediocity, I was of the opinion that we would never return to the top table, we broke the £1m transfer barrier as recently as Jan 2008! you get what you pay for in life, and we are now able to compete financially and it is starting to show.

Were you surprised at how badly Sunderland fared, desperately lucky to stay up in the end?

Northy:I wasn’t really surprised to be honest, i think there were a few teams last season who were one or two quality players short of concentrating on the top half. I think you have addressed this with the signings of cattermole, bent and the other guy you’ve got who’s name i can’t remember.

Julian: No, I felt Sbragia was never up to to the job as manager, and it gave me hope that The Black Cats would finish beneath Stoke. I appreciate Ricky has other talents and is appreciated by the Sunderland fans and Board and it’s good to see you’ve held onto his services. However you have one of the better English managers now, and your Summer signings have been good, I fancy Sunderland to be in the shake up for a Europa League come the end of the season.

What do you make of each club’s pre-season transfer activity? And Darren Bent’s public snub to Stoke?

Northy: Bent’s snub was a bit disrespectful but that’s the way of the world nowadays, washing your dirty linen in public. As i have just pointed out i think bruce has made some astute signings and he will do well at your place, good manager. Pulis has found this window hard, he’s going after players who probably class themselves as being out of stoke’s league and he’s got to convince them mentally and financially to come to the potteries. I am not happy with the fact that we have made one major signing so far in dean whitehead from your lot, we need more to compete this season, other teams have improved and we need to do so too.

Julian: Chalk and cheese, the only player we’ve signed is Dean Whitehead whom I am told is a box to box player (typical Pulis player) but unable to score, he was also your captain which suggests he is a person of gravitas (again a typical Pulis signing) he goes for positive personaliteis in his dressing room. Dean hasn’t covered himself in glory so here’s hoping he performs against his former employers. Darren Bent is a great signing, he is a proven goalscorer in the Prem, and he’ll get great reception from those vociferous fans of ours who (yes are quite to the contrary) are able to read!

Northy on Northy:
* Born is Stoke and have supported the Potters all my 36 years. I started going in 1980 and throughout the late 80s and the 90s was a regular home and away. I only go when I can now as I work in a concrete factory and have to do some Saturdays but I’ve done my time trawling the country watching Stoke and I bloody miss it to be honest but nevertheless I get to games still. I’m full of passion for the boys which is why I do this site because it’s got to be set free somehow. I live in Nottingham and my other passions are my missus and lad, punk rock, roots reggae and other musical delights.

Julian Boodell on Julian Boodell:

I AM a recruitment consultant and still manage to go to most home games. I once went 16 years without missing a home game and five without missing a home or away game (sadly for me that included watching all 42 games in 84-85 (three wins five draws and 35 defeats!). Gloryhunting is obviously my life. The kids are aware we “always beat West Brom” and we have a good friend who is a London based Mackem who brings tales of Sunderland on a regular basis.

My first game was in 1967, a 3-2 win over Leicester City with Terry Conroy making his debut. I’ve been a season ticket holder since 1977 and seen Stoke on over a 100 different league grounds – a real gloryhunter whose watched Stoke through thin and thinner. Now based in the Cotswolds having moved from Kent via London to be closer to what really matters. We now have a burgeoning Supporters’ Club in the South West so if you would like to join us to follow Stoke home and away just click on the South West Stokies website.

Here at last then is the complete version of Pete Sixsmith‘s account of his visit to Norwich for the Carling Cup game on Monday, a night when several players did their to show Steve Bruce they deserved tio break into the Premier League squad …

Noel Coward once described Norfolk as “very flat”. After our bruising battle with Blackburn, I feared that our performance might echo the words of the Master. Last season, they probably would have done. This season, there was nothing to worry about.

It was a pleasure to re-acquaint myself with the fair city of Norwich. A pleasant drive down (despite the sheer bloody awfulness of the A 17), the B and B found with the minimum of fuss and a pleasant afternoon spent in Norfolk’s only city.

It seemed a city at peace with itself. There have been changes since my last visit in the 80s. Norwich Union has become Aviva, Mackintoshes have shut their chocolate factory and the football club have slid into the third level of English football with barely a whimper. Life is slower here. The accent is gentle and easy going and although the ghosts of the Singing Postman and Sale of The Century reinforce the Partridgeisation of the place, it has a hell of a lot going for it.
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Whether it’s Delia’s cooking, East Anglia beer or the uncommon pleasure of seeing a cup tie in which we were head and shoulders above plucky lower league opposition, Pete Sixsmith isn’t himself today. Despite the best efforts of the tourist office in Cromer, he was able to transmit only a few lines of his reflections on Norwich City 1 Sunderland 4. The road back is a long one so it may be a while before he can remedy matters, so I will fill in a little by sharing with you my former colleague Shane Richmond’s developing thoughts on Facebook, as a Canaries fan, on the match …

Noel Coward once described Norfolk as “very flat”. I feared that after the bruising encounter with Blackburn, our performance might well echo the master’s words. Last year, they would have done. This year we are made of (much) sterner stuff.
It was a delight to visit Norwich for the first time since the early 80s. The drive down was fine (although I had forgotten quite how bloody awful the A17 is), the B and B ….

(I think we can safely assume Pete thought highly of his accommodation (in Unthank Road – not known to be named after the singing North Eastern sisters – great music, shame about the Championship team they support). But that was it, until a further message promised more words to come ….)

Shane’s world:

1946 Watching Norwich v Sunderland on TV. Can we just not get thrashed?

2013 Gary Docherty should play with a sign: XX minutes since last goal given away. (He’s just reset it to 0 mins)

2017 Oh well, game over after 30 minutes. That one was Otsemobor’s fault. At least it’s a premier league side this time

2145 4-1 isn’t a bad result against Premier League cannon fodder Sunderland. If we dump Doherty we look like an ok side

2200 Heh. Believe me, when you’ve been beaten 7-1 by Colchester, 4-1 is practically a moral victory!
2032 Good save by Sunderland’s keeper there, a keeper who is worth more than the entire ncfc team, by the way.

Pete Sixsmith reports on three good points towards – er- the safety by Christmas we knew under Peter Reid, or at any rate in two of his seasons …

By my calculations, only another 34 points needed before we can sleep in our beds, secure in the knowledge that Wear Tyne derbies will be off the agenda for at least another year.
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What do we think of when a match against Norwich looms? The “friendly final”, when we played abysmally, handing the Milk Cup to City in 1985? Yes, if you’re old enough. Games before that? Yes, if like Salut! Sunderland you’re prehistoric. For younger fans of both clubs, up against each other in the Carling Cup at Carrow Road tomorrow night (Monday), it may be hard to get past that opening day scoreline: Norwich 1 Colchester 7. How did these once high-flying Canaries fall so heavily from grace? Two City fans, found at the admirable Wrath of the Barclay fan site, responded in good-hearted fashion. First let’s hear from Nicholas Mead* …

So what on earth has gone wrong?

How long have you got? The first thing to say is that there is a significant body of opinion that does not accept that ANYTHING has gone wrong. As a group of fans we are not at ease with each other at the moment. In fact it has been the culmination of a number of things – we lack the infrastructure to put a decent team on the field: our Academy has produced nothing for years, and our scouting system has led us to sign some of the most useless apologies for footballers that there have ever been.
You will enjoy sitting in the South Stand on Monday night – but the debt incurred in its building hamstrings us now and will do for years to come – the board seems to have badly miscalculated the profit that the club would make from its other property dealings and as a result we are crippled with debt.
Norwich City’s present plight is neatly summed up thus: in the most recent accounts the debt incurred to buy the small car park behind the South Stand was greater than the monetary value attributed to the playing squad. .

Can it be put right and how soon?

Of course an injection of money would go a long way to putting everything right – but with the way the club’s debt is structured that is unlikely to happen. Otherwise we may now be at a turning point. We have a new Chief Executive who has impressed us all by going to Colchester and taking their manager away in a most ungentlemanly fashion. I’m writing this on Paul Lambert’s second day as manager so really don’t know how he will do – but he can’t be worse than the last bloke (actually I’ve said that about the last 3 managers and been proved wrong – so don’t quote me on that).
The Academy has also finally produced a player this year – Tom Adeyemi – who might just be the real deal, so that’s encouraging. Unfortunately our scouting system seems no better – many of our dozen summer signings have been greeted with a mixture of disbelief and horror.

The new Chief Executive has come in determined to make Norwich City a more efficient and much nastier operation – if he is allowed to do that then I can see us being back in the Championship within 3 years. If he fails then there seems to be no depth to which we may not fall.

Epic Games between Sunderland and Norwich?

Yes I went to both the League Cup Final in ’85 and the FA Cup semi-final in ’92. My chief memory of the final is getting drenched in beer as we all went crazy when Asa scored, and getting soaked again a couple of minutes later when Walker missed the penalty (Chrissy Woods had it covered anyway). The trauma of losing to an offside goal in a semi-final means that my brain has wiped all my memories of that grim encounter.

Other memories linking our clubs?

The name I forever associate with Sunderland is Mr C. B. White of Harrow who refereed the promotion showdown at Carrow Road in 1975. Bobby Moncur and the rest of the Sunderland team niggled and fouled their way through the 90 minutes with Mr White oblivious, until he eventually sent off Charlie Boyer and one of your lot for fighting. Now that WAS an epic encounter – and we had the last laugh that season too!
I never got to go to Roker Park, and – you’ll hate me for this – my one visit to the Stadium of Light was a disappointment. It was, I think, just after Mr. Keane was appointed manager so we were both at a low ebb, but the lack of atmosphere astonished me. Very good chip shop near the ground though! And before you all come looking for me on Monday night I will point out that I’m not impressed with any away ground that we’ve lost at. It’s just the way I am.

What about players and staff associated with both clubs?

I’m struggling there. Gary Rowell who just missed out on our League Cup Final squad of course. David Hodgson who nearly scored for you in that game played a handful of games for us a couple of years later. In goal for us on Monday night will be Ben Alnwick – hopefully he’ll want to put one over on you! Darren Ward was on our books for a couple of years although to the best of my recollection he only actually played once for us. Chris Brown came to us with a poor reputation and I don’t think the crowd ever really gave him a chance. Personally I wish we’d never let him go.

And Roy Keane’s now your neigbbour (or nearly) …

Ah Mr. Keane and Ipswich! A marriage made in heaven! I’m glad he’s no longer with you, because it means I can go back to quite liking you rather than willing you to lose. As far as I can see his reaction when Mick McCarthy stood up to him tells us all we need to know about him. And as for Ipswich – did you know that one of their fans has just been done for nicking the tributes placed to Bobby Robson outside their ground? League position is temporary, class is permanent. Norwich City always were, are now and always will be THE PRIDE OF ANGLIA.

Should I really have asked Rick Waghorn and Delia Smith have written this column?

Well Rick’s a proper journalist so he’d have explained how David McNally had bolted Team Paul onto Norwich City, and how we are going to slam fifteen stones of Cumbrian muscle into our forward line on Monday night. I could never come up with stuff like that. Delia Smith should stick to what she knows about.

The best you can hope for this season?

In all honesty right now I’d take fifth bottom and not getting beaten by a non-league team in the FA Cup. It’s hard to say – we don’t know what Lambert is going to do, and we don’t know if he has any financial room for manoeuvre. At this level the defence we are playing now is not too bad – but I’d like us to secure Alnwick for at least the season. We still have Dejan Stefanovic on the books, put him back in and suddenly we look good at the back. Holt and MacDonald is a useful combination up front, and if Stephen Hughes gets a run in midfield then he will create stuff for us. IF it all comes together, if we stay fit, then the play-offs are a possibility – but I wouldn’t put money on it.

Will Man City break into the top four?

I don’t bother my head over much with the Premier League I have to confess. If I had to pick a team to break into the Top 4 it would be Spurs, hopefully at the expense of Liverpool. Manchester City are just never going to be any good, Hughes will be gone by Christmas and some hugely expensive Italian coach will come in. Champions? Chelsea I would think. To go down? That’s tricky. Burnley, obviously, but I think Blues and Wolves will be good enough to survive. Portsmouth possibly, and hopefully Wigan – because they’re not really a proper football club are they? Sunderland will be OK – you have a good manager and, though I hate to say it, a good strike force. Mid-table and an FA Cup semi-final.

Monday’s result?

2-0 Norwich. Or, more likely, we hold you for 89 minutes and then Gary Doherty concedes a needless free-kick on the edge of our box…

And the question we forgot to ask?

You didn’t ask me about Steve Bruce! He scored the most famous goal in our history – the late League Cup semi-final winner over Ipswich, so although he left under a bit of a cloud he always has a place in our hearts. He nearly managed us too, way back when we nearly got Bruce & Gunn instead of Rioch & Hamilton. If only…And you may look at Steve Bruce’s career with some mystification. With Norwich and Manure he was the best English centre back of the late 80s – yet he never got a cap. Look at the CV of the then England manager and the truth becomes clear.

* Nicholas Mead on Nicholas Mead:
I’ve been supporting Norwich City through thick and mostly thin for 40 years. I lived in West Cornwall for many years and still managed to watch City regularly – but I am back in East Anglia now, and have a season ticket in the rather swish new South Stand. Football plays far too important a role in my life; if it weren’t for Norwich City I’d be rich. But I did have the good fortune to meet my wife through our shared love for the club. My favourite player of all time is the peerless Duncan Forbes, and I know for an absolute FACT that Ron Saunders is the greatest football manager that ever drew breath.

Colin Randall

A good win for each side on Saturday sets us up nicely for tonight’s encounter at Carrow Road. Next up from the ranks of Canaries is Scott Johnson*, again discovered at the Wrath of the Barclay fan site, who maintains the “Delia should stick to the kitchen” theme, thanks Salut! Sunderland for understating the scale of that opening day defeat at home to Colchester and offers an olive branch to Ipswich …

That 6-1 tonking on day one was a real shock. What’s up with Norwich?

It’s been a constant downward ever since we won the Championship really. Our owners were more than happy to portray the club as “little old Norwich” who were simply glad to be there to make up the numbers. It was a mindset that never left us a chance to survive. There’s a story does the rounds here that Bobby Robson (RIP, despite both our two clubs rivalries) was at a dinner just after promotion, and Delia told him our transfer budget for the season. He just laughed, and said ‘no chance’. We spent far too much of our money earned that season on off-field activities, a ploy that as STILL left us £20m in debt. Since then, it’s been a constant case of spending too much on other stuff, selling the good players and replacing them with inferior yet expensive replacements. The final straw was relegation last season.

Bryan Gunn (club legend, unfortunately now permanently tarred with relegation and our heaviest EVER home defeat) was only appointed temporary manager until the end of last season after the departure of Glenn Roeder (boo, hiss ?) and should never had got the job on a permanent basis due to not being good enough to manage. The fact he did so showed a) the ‘cosy’ mentality of our owners and b) the state of our finances. Oh, and c) his daughter set up a Facebook group. That said, he still brought in 12 new players, and we went all pre-season unbeaten, including beating Wigan and Palace.

With regard to our first game this season, gawd love you for keeping it to 6 (a Salut! Sunderland lapse of memory, now correct)- if only our defence had…it was actually 7 ! Unfortunately, as has also been shown in other games, our defence and confidence are so fragile, once we concede one it’s going to be backs against the wall. Too many of our players didn’t perform, the first two goals came from errors, the heads went down and Colchester got their tails up. They looked like scoring every time they attacked….to be fair, they did.

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OK, Tuesday night brought us back down to earth with a bump. Chelski were just streets, if not boulevards or trunks roads, ahead of us in class. Blackburn, at this stage of our development, should be a fairer test of Bruce’s squad….
Last season, we seemed to play Rovers every other week, presenting us with a real test to find enough of their fans to preview each of the games. One who expressed himself in particularly robust terms was Vinjay, owner of the Rovers fan site www.brfcattitude.com, though his commitment to the cause of Blackburn Rovers is equalled by his resolve to remain anonymous. His loathing for Roy Keane cannot offend us any more, but he still comes up with some challenging thoughts on Big Sam, Steve Bruce, club owners and cheating ….

Big Sam saved you quite comfortably in the end, Is he the man to take you forward?

I wasn’t surprised he ultimately prevented disaster. Always felt he was capable of that goal. The job he has done has been slightly overrated in my view. If Portsmouth can survive with a failed championship level manager and Brian Kidd in charge it wasn’t such a momentous task.

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Just as well we have Blackburn on Saturday, as good a chance as we could have to bounce back. A preview Rovers fan’s preview will appear by tomorrow. “Complete and utter massacre. Can’t ever remember us being so completely overrun at home by another side. Frankly depressing …” was one Sunderland supporter’s harsh verdict on the 3-1 home defeat by Chelsea. Pete Sixsmith takes a more philosophical view of the gulf in class between the two teams …

Well, it could have been worse. But for some dogged defending and our visitors taking their foot off the pedal with 10 minutes left, we could have been looking at a repeat of Saturday night’s fiasco at Goodison. As it was, we were privileged to watch a master class in how to swat awkward opponents when they are annoying you.

Again, we got off to a flier and Bent took his goal really well. He picked up the ball that Kenwyne had forced out of the defender, moved quickly onto goal and slotted it past Cech in a manner completely unbeknown to the likes of Chopra and Murphy. This was after Chelsea had started well but had been pushed on to the back foot by some ferocious tackling from Cattermole and Cana.
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